You'd be happy too having one of these in your garage! (Photographs: Craig Lindberg)

The sound and vibration through the seat feels good—you’ve just had some aftermarket parts for your sports car installed, dialed everything in and buffed the car to a high shine. The car breathes with new-found muscle as you point it towards the road and head over to your friend’s house. Upon arriving you give a beep, gun the gas for a second, and yell for your buddy to come outside.

Suddenly you hear the creak and scrape of your friend’s garage door as it separates from the concrete floor. As the garage door opens, the elegant lines and beauty of a Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano is revealed sitting inside of the garage. You know your girl is a beauty in her own right, but you can only look into the garage, stunned. Holy. Shit.

For a pizza fanatic, this is the reality of Craig Lindberg’s house. Standing seductively in Craig’s garage is a commercial grade, traditional low domed, wood-fired Acunto Classico 5 Italian brick pizza oven…a literal object of desire.

Understated elegance of a cheese pizza

A core member of the pizzamaking.com forums, Craig has been tirelessly pushing the limits of his pizza making since modifying his BBQ grill a couple of years ago and making pizzas on that which were already beyond what many are doing. Then came the Acunto.

After a pizza odyssey involving two broken forklifts, a forklift sunk in the wet ground of Craig’s yard, having to remove part of the garage to fit the oven inside, and other hi-jinx, the two ton oven was in place. A mammoth vent tube was installed, the Acunto sprang to life and home pizza making has never been the same.

However, an oven is just an oven. The growing “Craig’s Neapolitan Garage” thread is a testament to the passion and commitment to excellence Lindberg puts into every pie making session. This is as serious as it gets in the home pizza making world, so pay attention all you home making fanatics…

"This pie was otherwordly". Parmigiano-Reggiano, mozzarella, and shrimp par-cooked in bacon fat. Post-bake: Lea & Perrins worcestershire sauce, Tabasco, Shiner Bock, salt, red and black pepper, oregano, thyme, rosemary and garlic.

Name: Craig Lindberg
Location: Houston, TX
Oven: Mario Acunto Classico 5

What kind of pizzas did you grow up eating?

I don’t remember eating much pizza growing up and what we did eat certainly wasn’t Neapolitan or anything close. Only two names from my youth stick out in my mind—Shakey’s, which I remember being my parent’s favorite, and Pizza Hut, which I remember because my mom would go on about how much she hated their sausage. Up until about four years ago, a pepperoni pizza from Dominos was my favorite pizza.

What initially inspired you to make pizza at home?

I remember making pizza a long time ago with a recipe out of a Julia Child’s cookbook, The Way to Cook, of all places, but it was just in the ordinary course of business.

Pizza didn’t become a passion until about four years ago. A friend (who, incidentally, is now involved in the pizza business in NYC) had a wood fired oven (WFO) built into the kitchen of his home in Connecticut. I’ve always loved to cook and the kitchen is my favorite room in the house, so I of course told him that I’d like to see it. Sometime later he invited me and some others over to make pizza, and long story short, it changed my life. We made New York-Neapolitan style pies and his passion for pizza was contagious. That is the night I became a pizza obsessive. There were four of us invited to that dinner—two of us now have wood fired ovens.

Zucchini & sausage pie from Craig's grill days.

GRILL DAYS

Did you start cooking on your modified BBQ grill from the start or in your oven first?

I started in my oven, but that didn’t last long. It was obvious it was not going to take me where I wanted to go. I think I made pies in the oven two times before I started hacking the grill, which became quite an adventure in itself. I could get plenty of heat, but it was all on the bottom. I bet I broke four pizza stones before I found one that would hold up.

Was that the Fibrament stone?

Yes, the grill stone with the metal tray. It’s a great product.

What were some of the challenges with using the BBQ grill?

You just loose too much heat out of the metal top without insulation. I remember my first attempt to hold some heat in. I got an old wool army blanket and put it over the top. Wool has a pretty high flash point, so I knew it wouldn’t catch fire. In hindsight however, it should have been blindingly obvious that it would smoke a lot and really, really stink. When I finally settled in on a combination of welding and fire/rescue blankets, I was able to bake my first pies that came somewhat close to what I wanted.

Before the Acunto: A margherita pizza cooking in the intense heat of Craig's modified grill.

You have previously mentioned that Luzzo’s was the best pizza you had tasted around the time you started the Reverse Engineering UPN Thread on pizzamaking.com. What lead you to delve into a UPN clone as opposed to a Luzzo’s clone?

[At that time], the Luzzo’s pie was the best I’ve ever eaten. Incidentally, I ate my first Una Pizza Napoletana (UPN) pie only minutes later. The UPN project, however, was never about “cloning” a pie.

When the Naturally Risen video came out, I was deep in learning mode and I really liked UPN’s pies, so I watched the video quite a few times trying to wrap my head around how he was developing the flavor in his dough. The video also stirred a lot of discussion and speculation over at pizzamaking.com, and there were a number of places where I found myself disagreeing with various interpretations of what you could see [in the video] and speculation of what was happening where there were gaps.

Unlike most places, Anthony generously allowed a pretty detailed look into his process. I’d seen another video on UPN, Pure and Simple, that showed some elements missing from the Naturally Risen video and between the two videos and the tri-fold flyer he gave out his place, I thought I had enough good information to make a faithful attempt at a precise reverse engineering of his dough (exact ingredients, quantities, workflow and end product). Just getting to a pie that looked or tasted like his was not what interested me per se. It was an intellectual exercise more than anything else.

I think it is a great recipe and I’ve seen others make some beautiful pies with it. I’m happy about that. I’ve even been told that there is a commercial place that has adopted it. Notwithstanding, I like what I’m doing today better. I can count on one hand how many times I’ve used the recipe since I finished it.

What do you like better about what you are doing today?

The whole process is simpler. The dough is easier to work with — I’m not kidding when I say the balls virtually open themselves, yet the dough is still strong. I can stretch it and slide it, but I never have to fight it. The crumb is more tender and the flavor is just as good, perhaps not quite as sour, but I’m not sure that is a negative. I have not made both side-by-side. It’s on my list of things to do.

Margherita cooked on Craig's modified grill from the UPN Dough experiments

THE ACUNTO

Recount to us how you initially found out about the Acunto Classico 5 oven that was “just sitting there rusting away in a warehouse”.

I saw it posted at Pizzamaking.com in the Pizza Equipment for Sale section and it was literally rusting away in a warehouse. After I went to check it out, I told the seller if I didn’t buy it, he needed to get someone out there to clean it up before real damage was done.

It was kind of ironic. I just poured a new patio in my back yard and had heavily reinforced an area to build an oven. I was only days away from ordering fire bricks when I saw her for sale. It took almost three months to negotiate a deal with the seller. Also ironic is that the place I planned to build the oven is about the only place on the patio I could not get the Acunto on because of a vertical support in the way, so she went into the garage. I’m happy she ended up there. She belongs there, not outside. 

Bringing home the oven, removing part of the garage to make her fit and the first curing fire. Click to make larger

After the adventure of getting the oven to your house and into the garage, what was the biggest cooking adjustment you had to make transitioning from your BBQ grill to the Acunto?

It was actually a lot easier than I expected. I credit that to the design and construction of the oven more than any particular skill on my part. It heats up and maintains heat so evenly, it is amazing. I did a lot of watching and turning the pie in the BBQ, so working the Acunto was not that different. Granted, I’m not baking multiple pies simultaneously, which I’m sure would employ a learning curve. The only real transition was the speed at which things happen with bake times going from 2:30 or so to under 60 seconds in some cases.

How often are you making pizzas in the Acunto and about how many pizzas are you now making in a session?

I bake almost every week. I generally make dough Thursday night and bake on Saturday evening. The minimum number I ever bake is six. Eight is probably most common. The most I’ve done is 22.

Pepperoni and jalapeño pizzas cooked in the Acunto. Pie on the left from 10/15/2011. Pie on the right from 10/30/2011

How long did it take for you to get a handle on how much wood and what size of a fuel pile (wood and embers) works best in your oven?

My fire now is not much different from the first fire and ember pile I ever built in her; just a little hotter. I thought it would take a lot more time to figure it out. I guess I just got lucky.

The oven is big (47″ diameter) and well insulated. I can build a big ember pile—the coals probably cover the leftmost 25% or so of the floor (it would completely fill a 24″ oven) and stack about 6″ high with burning wood on top of that—and I still have a ton of room to work. With all that room, I can decrease the radiant heat by moving the pie away from the fire, giving me some additional control when needed.

Generally though, I bake just slightly off center away from the fire. With a fire this big, the heat is very even all the way across and so long as I keep a burning log or two on top, there is very little variation in temperature. This makes baking easier. I’d guess a precise fire is much more critical in smaller and less well insulated ovens. About the only other thing I’ve changed from the first time is that I warm her up a little longer now (about three and a half to four hours).

"Sure, I could buy it, but cutting and splitting it myself brings me that much closer to being one with the pie. Each stick is perfect. No rot, and exactly the size and length I want. And the vanilla smell when splitting the oak is just heaven".

What is your preferred bake time?

I was expecting 90 seconds to be the magic number, as some of the best pies I’ve eaten in restaurants timed in about there. However, I’ve had most of my best results at 55-65 seconds—probably because I’ve spent most of my time running at 900F+ temps since getting the oven. Baking a pie in under 60 seconds is pretty exciting. Our guests, many of whom have never eaten a Neapolitan pie, get quite a kick out of it too. That being said, I made some of my best pies ever last night at about the 90 second mark.

What is the most noticeable difference to you between the 55-60 second pizzas and a 90 second pizza?

There is a little more crispness in the outer shell of the crust on a 90 second pie and the inner part is a little dryer—not “dry” by any stretch of the imagination, but noticeably different from a 60 second pie. On a 60 second pie, there is less cooking and evaporation of the sauce during the bake. I might describe the flavors of the 60 second pie as fresher or more primal, but I don’t think that does it justice. It’s just different.

"I target 875-925F on the deck and I don't bake unless there are flames rolling across the dome"

Was there any one aspect that you improved upon to get your dough where you want it, or was it an overall better intuition for the entire process?

The main factor was changing flour from King Arthur All Purpose flour (KAAP) to Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. With the more intense heat of the WFO, I really didn’t have a choice when it came to moving to an unmalted flour. KAAP worked great in my grill, but Caputo works better in every imaginable way. Beyond that, I think it is just comes with experience—knowing what to look for as the dough develops and how it feels when it is ready. I don’t think I could describe it. You’d have to stand next to me and see and feel it.

Even then, what works for me might not be optimal for someone else…there are so many variables.

My advice to anyone using extended fermentation would be to err on the side of underworking the dough. I’ve also found that by working my dough less initially, I can make my dough balls a lot tighter and still have a super relaxed dough.

I couldn’t agree more Craig. You have been utilizing minute amounts of wild yeast starter, short-mixing, stretch and folds, and extended fermentations for a couple of years now. Are you comfortable with your mixing and fermentation regimen, or do you still have some experimentation in mind? If so, what are you working on?

I’m in a happy place when it comes to mixing and fermentation for my pies, and I’ve settled in on 60% hydration

Why do you prefer 60% as opposed to another hydration ratio?

I don’t know why 60% is better. It must have something to do with the flour and the heat. With KAAP in my grill, 62% was the magic number. Since moving to Caputo and the wood fired oven, I’ve tried various levels between 59% and 64%. 60% yields the best results for me and has worked well consistently. It seems like some of the other folks with WFOs at pizzamking.com are also running around 60%. I plan to experiment more in the 58-60% range, but I don’t know when I’ll get around to it.

Also, my dough balls practically open themselves and the flavor is just incredible. I never was any good at that fancy Neapolitan stretch and slap and flip technique of opening dough balls. The good news is that with my current dough, you don’t need it.

You have preferred Cento Italian (non-D.O.P.) tomatoes for a while now. What other tomatoes have you tried and what do you like about the Cento Italian tomatoes?

The Cento Italian are still my favorites and I use them about 95% of the time. To me, they have a deep, yet still fresh and lively, tomato flavor and they are consistently good from can to can. Others I’ve tried and like are Strianese San Marzano DOP and the DeCecco San Marzano DOP (I don’t think they make the DeCecco anymore). Here in Houston, unless you’re making BBQ or Mexican food, you pretty much have to take what you can get. Luckily the Cento is pretty widely available.

Got tender crumb and hole structure?

You have visited some of the top tier places like Una Pizza Napoletana (East Village), Kesté, and Motorino. What qualities in your pizzas have you strived for that differentiate yours in some way to better mirror your personal tastes?

I’ve been fortunate in that my job takes me to NYC, San Francisco, and other places giving me the opportunity to try many of the top names. For almost as long as I’ve been serious about pizza, I’ve had the benefit of knowing what a great pie tastes like. The value of that can’t be understated. Every time I go, I try to find at least one thing I like and use it to make my pies better. I owe these guys a lot.

Craig, from following your workflow and pizzas for a while now, I would imagine your pies are at the same level as some of the places you have visited. Sorry to put you in a tough spot, but this is the hot seat after all. Am I far off the mark?

The places you mention all bake incredible pies and I understand what I do at home is not the same as what they do in their high-volume businesses. That being said, I love my pizza and would not hesitate to go head-to-head with any of them on a few pies. But then again, I’ve also been known to hunt wild hogs with throwing knives… 

Do the Motorino. Craig's Brussels sprouts pizza immediately before and after bake

What qualities are you looking for in your pizzas when trying to make that “perfect” pie?

I find the Margherita to be the biggest challenge and it’s my favorite pie for that reason. Fortunately, it’s also my favorite pie to eat. A Margherita is the great equalizer—the one pie you can really compare from place to place. More than any other pie, perfection requires precise balance and unlike most every other pie, there is no hiding errors or shortcomings under a sea of highly flavored toppings.

Stunning consistency of quality. Click picture to make larger and get the full effect!

My vision of the perfect pie is a very special Margherita which I’ve never made nor seen or tasted for that matter. Elements of this pie would include:

Balance: To me, the Margherita is the quintessential feminine pie. No rough edges, no pretenses, and no show of strength to cover weakness or lack of confidence. She is just beauty, poise, and grace; all manifestations of her perfect balance.

Crust: The cornice has a paper-thin outer shell and the texture inside is light, like a cloud with big and small bubbles whose walls are made out of hundreds of tiny-tiny little bubbles. You definitely know it is pizza and not bread. The crust has some bite, yet chews almost without resistance; it almost melts in your mouth and it digests easily.

The flavor of the crust is not “sour”, but you taste flavors and experience aromas beyond what regular yeast can deliver. It’s an experience that can not be created by yeast from the supermarket no matter how long you let the poor dough suffer in your refrigerator.

The bottom shows scattered spots of charring, but is not burned. The cornicione sports a pronounced leoparding or a more even and gentle charring. Either way, the key is that it adds flavor and visual excitement without dominating any of the other elements. Perfect charring is a fine line, but it is an absolutely essential part of the overall depth and balance of flavor. It is perhaps the most difficult element to master, as it involves so many variables from formula, to fermentation, to temperature, to oven skills.

Toppings: The sauce is such that the acid from the tomatoes balances against the richness of the cheese, but it also has a sweetness that balances not only the acid, but also the umami flavors of the tomato, the salt and the slight bitterness of the caramelization in the crust.

I prefer the basil applied before the bake so that the flavor infuses with the sauce. I also prefer a little more basil than you often get. One leaf is not balance. For me, basil is about both flavor and color.

The cheese should be torn by hand so that the rough edges melt and incorporate seamlessly into the sauce. The cheese should be sized such that the heat in the pie finishes melting it only at the very moment the pie is served.

The placement of the toppings is also important not only for visual appeal, but also for variety of taste. I want a Margherita where I get some bites with sauce, cheese and basil, some bites with only sauce and cheese, some bites with only sauce, some bites with only sauce and basil and so on. This gives the pie a certain come hither playfulness. What fun is it if every bite tastes the same?

There is not a single element that is irrelevant or can be left to chance, and there are so many elements which must be right simultaneously, that achieving perfection approaches impossibility.

It is easy to get started, but it could take years or even a lifetime to master. This is what I love about Neapolitan pizza. It is a large part of what drives my passion. Every time I finish baking, I can’t wait until the next time so that I can incorporate what I just learned.

Amen brother! I’ve been shouting out against julienned basil on pizzas for years. Craig, are you tasting a smokiness in the char that is distinctly more “smoky” than your grill results or is it just a different type of bitterness?

I don’t think the burning wood in either the grill or the wood fired oven imparts a noticeable amount of smoke flavor. There just isn’t enough time and at those temperatures I think the combustion is so complete that there are probably no flavor compounds left. There is no smoke coming out of the oven other than maybe when you first put a new log on the coals.

Done properly, there is no bitterness in the char. It’s very much like making a black roux for gumbo (equally difficult and both have to be right or your gumbo or pizza isn’t); when it is right, the flavor is incomparable—deep and rich, but not bitter and an essential element of either dish. The difference between perfect and burned is a pretty fine line…it’s almost binary.

sardines!

How concerned are you with how “authentic” or “traditional” your pizzas are…would you be interested in the view a person from Naples or an organization like the AVPN may have about your pizzas?

I think my Margherita is going to be pretty close to authentic because there really is no arguing that they got it right and there is little need to change anything (I do make my pies a little bigger than spec). Do I care what they or anyone else thinks about the authenticity my pies however? Not in the slightest. To be fair, I would never claim them as such either. I just want my pies to be the way I want them to be. Hopefully others agree with my taste.

What is the one aspect of pizza making you are trying to improve the most?

All of them. Something about every pie I make disappoints me and it’s not usually the same thing from one pie to the next. There are so many elements; you can’t just focus on one. If I had to pick one to name, I’d say getting the char on the cornicione just the way I want it. I think it is the most difficult to master.

Other than a Margherita, Craig's favorite toppings combination is "probably mozzarella di bufala, brown mushrooms, Parmigiano-Reggiano and black pepper with a drizzle of truffle oil after the bake".

What is the most enjoyable part of the pizza making process for you?

By and large the whole process is relaxing for me now (it has not always been that way). Saturday afternoon, I open a bottle of wine, prep the toppings, hang out with my boys, build the fire, pull a chair up to the oven and drink more wine by the fire as the oven comes alive. I also love to cook for other people and share the experience. If four things go better together than pizza, fire, friends, and wine, I don’t know what they are.

Any wine recommendations that you enjoy pairing with particular pizzas?

Drink what you like. For me, great pizza doesn’t need anything from wine to be a perfect food. The wine only needs to add enjoyment to the experience. Don’t force yourself into what someone else likes or thinks matches well. That will probably distract from the pie.

Do you ever entertain making pizzas for a living?

Yes.

Oh!? Are you still in the imagining phase or have you taken further steps like constructing a business plan or looking for potential investors?

I pretty much know what the concept would be (or will be) and as far as the theme or the décor, it probably would not be a garage, but I have not ruled that out entirely. I don’t think there is anything else quite like what I’m imagining. If there is, I haven’t seen it. Heck, that almost sounds like I’ve decided to do it. I haven’t. I know right where it needs to be located too, but I haven’t written a business plan or done much of anything else for that matter.

Finally, are you still planning to tile your oven? Any ideas on what colors?

I don’t know. We’ve gotten pretty comfortable with each other the way we are. I’m not much of one for dressing up. Heck, I usually don’t wear shoes when I bake (despite several warnings to the contrary). How can I ask her to get all dressed up if I don’t? Sometimes, however, I think she might like a nice new dress to show off. It’s not out of the question. I think she likes earth tones, but we haven’t discussed it much

The tiled Mario Acunto pizza oven at Forcella in Brooklyn

Thanks so much Craig for your time and we look forward to seeing more of your pizzas on My Pie Monday—and maybe even one day at your own pizzeria!

On guard, do you think your Wu-Tang sword can defeat me? (Photographs: Chau Tran)

“Bringing kung foolery to pizza making” is one of his sayings, but make no joke about it, Chau “Jackie” Tran is dead serious when it comes to homemade pies. Within a relatively short period of time, Tran has honed his skills, deepened his knowledge of the pizza work-flow, has become a core member of the pizzamaking.com forums, and is now an all-around pizza-making monster. The Albuquerque, New Mexico, resident is proof positive that lots of research and time spent with hands gooped up from dough adds up to some pretty kick-ass-looking and, I bet, -tasting, pizzas.

It’s one thing to scour a variety of pizza recipes from books and the web to discover the one which best mimics the vision of an ideal pizza. It’s quite another to learn about and constantly experiment with the different variables involved in the baking process so that you can better understand how to formulate your own work-flow and end up with a pizza that closely resembles the pies that haunt you late at night, when the pizza demons are on the prowl. With Chau’s pizzas looking this good now, I can only imagine where they will be as time progresses.

NY-Neapolitan style pizza influenced by Totonno's Coney Island

You’ve been making pizza at home for a relatively short period of time, right? How long?

I recall making crappy pizza as a kid here and there. I also made a lot of French bread pizza in college to get by, LOL. I’ve been seriously making pizza at home for about a year and a half.

From what I can tell, passion, insatiable curiosity, and lots of time are a big part of your being able to develop as quickly as you have. But what in particular would you say has helped you?

Yes, all of those things. I would add to that my perspective that failure is temporary and a necessary part of the process. Mindset, determination, and willpower are absolutely needed for success in all things we do.

Did you have a particular aha moment while making pies?

Definitely. I had been using the Varsano recipe and adapted a hand-kneading method that for months turned out the same mediocre pies. I was always experimenting with several variables at once, determined to learn and improve. One night, I applied some stretch-and-folds from the bread-making world to half of the dough that was to be cold-fermented. I took that particular doughball out and re-balled it after 24 hours of cold-fermentation and again prior to warm proofing. I baked a phenomenal pie in the home oven. The pizza heavens opened up and I could hear the pizza angels singing. It was a crust beyond any I’ve had from a wood-fired oven — and it came from my home oven.

The other pie from that batch without the added folds was typically mediocre. I then realized that the same ingredients, if combined or handled the right way, can bring forth a product that exceeds the sum of its parts. That pizza was my first perfect pizza, and I still remember it fondly.

Why did you adapt a hand-kneading method to the Varasano technique? Did you not have a stand mixer at the time?

At the time I didn’t own a mixer. I knew the masters of old did it with their hands, so that’s what I was determined to learn, and I wouldn’t allow myself to buy a mixer until I learned how to make dough properly by hand. Consequently, it took me more than a year of dough making to really understand how to hand-knead properly using a variety of flours and techniques.

A Varasano-influenced pizza

The Verasano method employs natural leavening, which adds another variable to the mix. Is it possible there may have been some coincidental connection between your level of competency with sourdough and when you started adding stretch-and-folds to the recipe that got those pizza angels singing?

I now understand that there is definitely a difference in using a young versus mature leaven. They definitely give different results as far as flavor and structure because of the amount of [initial] acids and those developed from fermentation. If I had to guess, I was likely using an older, more mature starter at the time.

How often do you make pizza at home?

When I first started, I got the pizza bug pretty bad. I was making pizza three to four times a week for many months. Since I’ve discovered bread, I make pizza once or twice a week and bread at least once a week. I’ve gained a bit of weight this past year, so I’m trying to cut back.

Sauteed baby arugula, garlic slivers, and cherry tomato pizza cooked on Chau's Little Black Egg.

You likely made as many pizzas during those first several months as I have in the last 18 months. How many pies do you typically make in a session?

At first it was three to four pies per session, but I quickly dropped that number down to about two, since it’s only my wife and me eating it — and lately just myself. I also decrease the size down to about 12 inches to avoid wasting pizza.

What qualities are you looking for in your pizzas when trying to make that “perfect” pie?

To me, perfect pizza starts with a perfect crust. The crust should be slightly crisp on the exterior, soft and moist inside with just a little chew. I like the crust to remind me of a good baguette. When holding out a slice initially, it should have enough strength to support its own weight. It’s normal for droopage as the pie sits, but initially I like a crisp, well-baked bottom. Aside from the crust, achieving pizza nirvana requires achieving balance. The crust with the cheese and sauce, which should meld together. At one time I liked leoparding on the cheese, but I avoid that now. Salt levels can’t be too low or too high. The pizza has to be balanced with proper heat from the bake — pies can’t be underbaked or overbaked. The crust can’t be too thick or too thin. Any spices, etc. all have their place as well.

Most important, it should be shared with a friend so that both parties can agree that it is that good!

I hear you about the friend part! Which part of the pizzamaking process is most challenging for you?

The dough and crust…it is the most difficult to make just right.

Garlic & shrimp pizza cooked on the little black egg

What part of the pizzamaking process is most enjoyable for you?

Being able to problem-solve and find solutions. It’s being able to keep at it, trying to figure out how to do something and then actually figuring it out and understanding the “how” and the “why.” Also, being able to eat good pizza that I made myself is very rewarding.

What is your favorite style of pizza to make?

Neo-Neapolitan. It combines aspects of both Neapolitan and New York–style. Very similar to a typical Neapolitan pie but baked out longer in the three- to four-minute range. Toppings should be moderately applied, not too heavy and not too light.

It seems your cook times and tastes may have evolved slightly, as you once mentioned you preferred pies cooked for about five to six minutes. What in particular changed your cook times slightly? Was it experimenting with and eating more Neapolitan-style pizzas or something else?

My tastes have evolved in the sense that I’m much more critical about what is great and what is not. Still, my perfect pie has always been a cross between New York and Neapolitan. I have always liked aspects of both styles and wanted to incorporate those aspects from the beginning.

I’ve discovered that the majority of people seem to like the same kind of pizza with the same kind of crust. At the time I made my first perfect pie, I wasn’t really timing the bakes closely, so my best guestimate is that it took about five to six minutes in my home oven. I now bake my NY-Elite (NY-Neapolitan) pies between three and three and a half minutes in the Little Black Egg (LBE). It’s a different baking environment than the home oven.

In my opinion, the best pies are always sub-four minute bakes, closer to three minutes. But here’s the kicker: You can make a very similar product with a crisp crust and soft, aerated crumb when a pizza is baked between 2.5 to 4.5 minutes, depending on the type of flour, hydration ratios, gluten development, etc. So, relatively, the exact bake time is not that important. It’s a balance of the proper, even oven heat to produce good oven spring and the length of the bake to achieve the correct balance between the moistness of the crumb and the crispness of the shell (outer crust).

A cheese pizza cooked on the Mini Black Egg, December 2010

The LBE — I saw that you recently built one. What led you in this direction?

Yes, I recently put one together based on my MBE (Mini Black Egg) setup. The MBE is great. Fast heat-up times of less than 10 minutes and it uses minimal propane to produce great pies. One issue I had was the small size. With a 12-inch stone, pies are limited to 11 inches or so, and part of the rim is almost sticking out of the front vent. I think there’s not enough heat circulating in the smallish dome to create good oven spring all the way around. I have to turn the pies at timed intervals to get great spring to a portion of the rim and mediocre spring to the rest. Also, the smaller stone doesn’t store enough heat to give maximum oven spring. I’m hoping my new LBE will give me a better spring in the rim all the way around and more even charring over the crust. Initial tests have shown promising results, but I still need to make adjustments.

An experimental ultra-thin pizza.

One of the most immediately recognizable things about your pizzas is the awesome crumb. Is that crumb something you stumbled upon during a particular experiment or something you have always had in mind and been working toward?

Both. I stumbled upon it way back at the beginning of my journey and have made it a goal as well. I’ve always been able to get an open-looking crumb, but I didn’t always understand all of the factors that went into making it.

For a while, I had some misconceptions about which factors were responsible for a great oven spring. It was [pizzamaking.com] member Scott123 who helped me understand more about the different variables and how they work together. He encouraged me to do some experiments comparing hydration ratios and dough size. Consequently, I learned a lot about oven spring doing these and other similar experiments … [but] very important here is that the baking process and spring don’t introduce anything new to the dough. It only completes the process and reveals what’s underneath. What is there is already there.

Holy rollin' through Crumbville. Click to enlarge and get the full effect.

Agreed, oven spring is the end point which helps to fully reveal a good crumb. Let’s back up a bit. An irregular, airy crumb is often associated with shorter or less intensive kneading, higher hydration ratios, and proper dough handling, among other factors. How do you feel these play a role in your pizzas?

How I understand the difference between crumb structures (right or wrong) is that it comes from the source of yeast used, the aggressiveness of the mix, the extent of gluten development, and the extent of fermentation.

On shorter mixing: Scott also introduced me to the idea of minimal kneading, which he in turn learned about from several other members. This helped because I was getting dry crumbs from over-kneading high-protein-floured doughs. A lot of my pies had a nice spring with an open crumb, but the crumb was dry or it would dry out shortly after cooling down. What good is it to have a huge oven spring if the finished crumb is dry and tough?

Having developed more of an understanding for dough in the last year, I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea of minimal kneading for all situations. Minimal kneading is relative and applies more to high-protein flours and/or long, cold ferments. I am more of an advocate of proper gluten development relative to the hydration ratio and the level of protein of the flour. Meaning that if you use a low protein flour with a relative higher hydration ratio, you need to develop the gluten sufficiently by either increasing the kneading time and/or by incorporating stretch and folds to build gluten. Such a dough would not work well with minimal kneading.

But generally, I knead less for cold-fermented doughs compared to same-day doughs. The process of cold fermentation will toughen the crumb up a bit, so you want to under develop the gluten to compensate for this. I never knead to window pane. Windowpaning represents full gluten development, and I will typically knead to about 75 percent of full gluten development. I prefer to do stretch-and-folds to complete the development of the gluten after some rest periods or during the balling stage.

On higher hydration levels: Higher hydration levels do help aid in oven spring as it lends more steam during the baking process, but this only works if you have sufficient or proper gluten development along with evenly distributed, high [temperature] heat.

On extent of fermentation: From what I’ve experienced (and it’s very limited mind you), as a dough gets older and fermentation starts to break down the gluten matrix, you have a melding of alveoli. Cell walls break down and air pockets combine, giving that irregular look. This happens much more readily in doughs using starters or natural leavens as they produce more acid. In the later stages of fermentation, you have two things going on. One is that the acids toughen the crumb structure, resulting in a more chewy texture. Second, later stages of fermentation weaken the overall structure of the gluten matrix, breaking it down and releasing water. This is why a cold fermented dough may feel more wet and slack, but can have a tougher crumb at the same time

On dough handling: Generally, gentle handling of the dough is a good practice. During the balling of the dough, I generally throw in some stretch-and-folds to finish building strength in the dough. How much I do this really depends on the strength [of the dough] at the time that I’m balling it. You want to preserve the air in the dough and avoid degassing it prior to baking. This can aid in a bigger oven spring if the high heat is uneven or if the heat is not at a high temperature. I have seen that with the high and more even heat of a wood fired oven, gentle handling of the dough becomes less significant — it still puffs up even if you press the rim. Again, it’s balancing what you have to work with.

Every variable and aspect of dough/pizza making has a purpose. It’s important to try and understand how each of these factors affect the overall dough and then try to balance them all together to produce the crumb that we want.

How do you feel the stretch-and-folds contribute to your finished product?

After I made my first incredibly great pie using stretch-and-folds from the bread-making world, I have since then adapted that technique to all of my pies. I use this technique to trap air in the dough and to create the big air bubbles in the rim. This step balances out the higher hydration and completes the development of strength in my doughs.

Pizza has a different form factor than bread, and pizza-making enthusiasts may ferment pizza dough for much longer than many bread recipes. Do you feel there are any differences between the two products with respect to getting good hole structure?

I have always believed that dough is dough, meaning pizza dough follows the same set of rules and principles as bread dough. Since learning to make bread, my thoughts have been confirmed. For bread, we only shape it and bake it out differently than pizza, but the same principles that apply to getting a great crumb in bread also are the same for pizza dough.

You’ve said you like your profession and that you wouldn’t consider opening a pizzeria unless you could be in the top ten. What do you think it would take for you to reach that level and what do you feel would be the biggest challenge with operating a commercial establishment?

Reaching that level would require me to be able to make the very best pizza I could possibly make and be able to do it on a consistent basis regardless of changing conditions. I guess I wouldn’t have to be a top ten pizzeria, but I would have to be satisfied that my pizzas could compete with the best pies out there.

I’m sure there are many challenges when it comes to running a pizzeria. I would think one of the biggest challenges is in maintaining a high-quality product while being profitable.

Who would you like to see interviewed next?

Gosh, there are so many members at pizzamaking.com. Definitely the two Scotts (Scott123 & Scott R), Texas Craig, Villa Roma, & others

A NY-style pizza out of Chau's new wood fired oven.

When Slice gets to New Mexico for its United States of Pizza series, they should put both yours and Bill SFNM’s houses on the list of best pizza places in New Mexico!

LOL, you’re too kind. I still need to do a lot of work with my pizza.

Update: Since this interview (March 2011), Chau has put a wood-fired oven onto his patio and continuing to push the envelope.